Titling a vehicle in Montana via LLC

R N M wrote

The politicians themselves use every possible loophole to avoid paying taxes and they are the ones creating the laws.

How dare you accuse them of such debauchery. Our own politicians doing what they can to skirt the US tax code? Unthinkable.

Next you'll tell me they all magically become millionaires as soon as they get elected to power. No sir, none of that here in the US.

BlkGS wrote

The MT LLC thing is tax fraud, pure and simple. While some might have gotten away with it, it's still tax fraud and can land you in jail.

If you ACTUALLY own a business and can prove it and that business is incorporated in MT, that's one thing. But if it's a holding company that you're faking to buy cars with, that's tax fraud and the government can come after you long after you thought you got away with it

you need to define 'legit business'. by your definition someone could create an LLC in MT and sell one pair of socks per year through it. they are conducting legitimate business are they not? so he gets to avoid $300k sales taxon his bugatti.

if thats wrong then how many does he need to sell? 10? 100? 1000? is 499 socks a sham company and 500 a legit company?

XutvJet wrote

....I can't imagine maintaining a large number of 10 y/o cars. I guess most people that have "collections" aren't really car guys anyways, in the sense that they actually know how to work on a car, much less even know how a car really works (not saying this is you). They essentially just like cars and don't have a passion for them.

I agree with almost everything you posted in this thread except this.

I don't think you have to know how to work on a car to be a car guy. You just have to have a passion for cars.

I am a car guy, I worked on cars for a living, worked on my own cars for fun, built 1 of my cars, and I don't work on my cars anymore. Why? Because I don't have the time and I am tired of laying on the garage floor to do the work.

Maybe if I lived in a warm climate and had a lift I would feel different. But until then I take it to the dealer.

x622 wrote

How dare you accuse them of such debauchery. Our own politicians doing what they can to skirt the US tax code? Unthinkable.

Next you'll tell me they all magically become millionaires as soon as they get elected to power. No sir, none of that here in the US.

This is Money. Until those crooks can’t trade on the stock market, I vote everyone open an LLC in Montana and save every hard earned dollar you make. Fuck them in their brown eye. I know my tax guy works magic with my rental properties. God bless him!!!! Every year we put on a new roof and AC units. Go figure. Lol. Just kidding🤷🏼‍♂️. Or am I

Humdizzle wrote

you need to define 'legit business'. by your definition someone could create an LLC in MT and sell one pair of socks per year through it. they are conducting legitimate business are they not? so he gets to avoid $300k sales taxon his bugatti.

if thats wrong then how many does he need to sell? 10? 100? 1000? is 499 socks a sham company and 500 a legit company?

I don't need to, the IRS has rules for that.

A good rule of thumb is, if the LLC is taking in more money from its owner than from revenue, it's probably a scam, though admittedly I think the IRS does allow for that to happen for like 2 years or so. I dunno the specifics, I'm not an IRS lawyer or a tax accountant.

BlkGS wrote

I don't need to, the IRS has rules for that.

A good rule of thumb is, if the LLC is taking in more money from its owner than from revenue, it's probably a scam, though admittedly I think the IRS does allow for that to happen for like 2 years or so. I dunno the specifics, I'm not an IRS lawyer or a tax accountant.

You do realize these LLCs are setup as holding companies for assets not operating companies. Every major corporation has holding companies setup in specific states that gives them the greatest tax and liability protection.

R N M wrote

You do realize these LLCs are setup as holding companies for assets not operating companies. Every major corporation has holding companies setup in specific states that gives them the greatest tax and liability protection.

The loophole needs to be closed.

Donatello. wrote

The loophole needs to be closed.

Its not a loophole - its part of the financial system.
Learn how it works and leverage it to benefit your finances if it helps.

R N M wrote

Its not a loophole - its part of the financial system.
Learn how it works and leverage it to benefit your finances if it helps.

ok capt obtuse!

Don't forget to lick the boot guys!

Why anyone would be willing to give MORE money to uncle sam is crazy to me

I wouldn't recommend doing this especially if you plan on driving your cars regularly. If you get pulled over more than once with the same out of state plate within a certain time frame, you will get in trouble.

BlkGS wrote

The MT LLC thing is tax fraud, pure and simple. While some might have gotten away with it, it's still tax fraud and can land you in jail.

If you ACTUALLY own a business and can prove it and that business is incorporated in MT, that's one thing. But if it's a holding company that you're faking to buy cars with, that's tax fraud and the government can come after you long after you thought you got away with it

lmao...so it is ok for states to keep taxing vehicles EVERY TIME they trade hands?

That is the real TAX FRAUD


Is it tax fraud to cross over to Arizona from California to buy gas that is $1.50 a gallon cheaper if you reside in a california town that borders AZ? Or just common sense? It isn't illegal or immoral, it is taking advantage of a loop hole that legally allows it.

I'm not rich, but I'm sick and tired of paying thousands of dollars in sales tax on a car that has already been taxed 2 or 3 times by the time I bought it, only to sell it 2-3 years later for the state to tax it once again....THAT IS THE REAL SCAM

I'm currently debating doing this on a car I'm about to buy from a private party to avoid giving the state $8,000 for a car I will maybe drive 2000 miles a year....If I lived in AZ I wouldn't have to go through any of this, becuse they don't tax used cars that are sold by private party....imagine that?

They already take $10,000 a year from me in property taxes on my house alone.... not to mention the yearly registration fees for my other car registrations and highest gas taxes in the country on top of that....the roads should be paved in gold by how much money they take form regular folks every year.


Until states stop raping people on sales taxes on things like used cars, people will continue to find ways to avoid being raped.

SoCal_NSX wrote

lmao...so it is ok for states to keep taxing vehicles EVERY TIME they trade hands?

That is the real TAX FRAUD


Is it tax fraud to cross over to Arizona from California to buy gas that is $1.50 a gallon cheaper if you reside in a california town that borders AZ? Or just common sense? It isn't illegal or immoral, it is taking advantage of a loop hole that legally allows it.

I'm not rich, but I'm sick and tired of paying thousands of dollars in sales tax on a car that has already been taxed 2 or 3 times by the time I bought it, only to sell it 2-3 years later for the state to tax it once again....THAT IS THE REAL SCAM

I'm currently debating doing this on a car I'm about to buy from a private party to avoid giving the state $8,000 for a car I will maybe drive 2000 miles a year....If I lived in AZ I wouldn't have to go through any of this, becuse they don't tax used cars that are sold by private party....imagine that?

They already take $10,000 a year from me in property taxes on my house alone.... not to mention the yearly registration fees for my other car registrations and highest gas taxes in the country on top of that....the roads should be paved in gold by how much money they take form regular folks every year.


Until states stop raping people on sales taxes on things like used cars, people will continue to find ways to avoid being raped.

It sounds to be like your issue is the state you live in. More than likely those issues stem from who you voted for, unless you're a conservative stuck in Cali or something.

That's an interesting point about sales tax on used cars. I can understand if the vehicle was not sold in that state before taxing it. That said, I agree, if I buy a car from a private party that's used in the same state, I shouldn't have to pay sales tax again. If bought from a dealer, I should only have to pay sales tax on the difference between what they paid and what I'm paying, as that delta should (in theory) represent work they performed on it, and dealers should be required to tell you exactly what they paid and what they spent on it as part of the sale.

That said, the right way to fix this is not via tax evasion, it's by legislature. Start talking to your local reps and if they don't listen, take their jobs.

BlkGS wrote

It sounds to be like your issue is the state you live in. More than likely those issues stem from who you voted for, unless you're a conservative stuck in Cali or something.

That's an interesting point about sales tax on used cars. I can understand if the vehicle was not sold in that state before taxing it. That said, I agree, if I buy a car from a private party that's used in the same state, I shouldn't have to pay sales tax again. If bought from a dealer, I should only have to pay sales tax on the difference between what they paid and what I'm paying, as that delta should (in theory) represent work they performed on it, and dealers should be required to tell you exactly what they paid and what they spent on it as part of the sale.

That said, the right way to fix this is not via tax evasion, it's by legislature. Start talking to your local reps and if they don't listen, take their jobs.

Lol. Local reps don’t have 2 fucks to give anymore. Vote new in and they will drink the kool aid also. It’s an understatement to say politicians are the biggest crooks out there. Cut every corner/ save where you can peeps.

BlkGS you're fighting a bit of an uphill battle. We're just on forums discussing things that are unlikely to change. I learned the depths of a lot of this when I worked at Twitter and why we were based out of the state of Delaware.

You're saying talk to the same local reps that are benefiting from the current system in place, what incentive would they have to change it and in turn, cost them more money?

If you want to be the one to actually make a change to the system you're more than welcome to. I have made friends across many economic areas to understand that friends don't hurt friends. Most folks are looking to pay as little as possible through whatever means necessary.

imperfectluck wrote

BlkGS you're fighting a bit of an uphill battle. We're just on forums discussing things that are unlikely to change. I learned the depths of a lot of this when I worked at Twitter and why we were based out of the state of Delaware.

You're saying talk to the same local reps that are benefiting from the current system in place, what incentive would they have to change it and in turn, cost them more money?

If you want to be the one to actually make a change to the system you're more than welcome to. I have made friends across many economic areas to understand that friends don't hurt friends. Most folks are looking to pay as little as possible through whatever means necessary.

I get it. I don't disagree. The political mind also doesn't work correctly. They will see that they're losing money to the Montana LLC thing and decide they need to prosecute people using that loophole rather than address why people feel the need to do so.

I'd like to think we have hope to fix the issues we have regarding govt waste and excess. I'm probably being optimistic.

At the end of the day, where my realism kicks in is that if you do this, the state you live in will find you, and levy you with all those back taxes. This was a big thing about 10 years ago when a buncha guys in GA were caught doing it, and some of those guys ended up owing millions in taxes before the punitive fees came.in. almost all states require you to register the car where it is kept. So unless you're leaving your car in Montana for 6 months of the year, it's tax fraud. And the tax guys are the least friendly part of the government to deal with. There's no new arguments here, no moral high ground, it's just a running clock for when the state decides that you're worth enough to go after.

Back about 10 years ago this was a big thing on YouTube. Ed Bolian on VinWiki tried to do a moral high ground thing and it really sounded like he knew he was screwed because he was pushing customers to do that when he sold cars. It seems like he avoided jail time for that so far though.

SoCal_NSX wrote

lmao...so it is ok for states to keep taxing vehicles EVERY TIME they trade hands?

That is the real TAX FRAUD


Is it tax fraud to cross over to Arizona from California to buy gas that is $1.50 a gallon cheaper if you reside in a california town that borders AZ? Or just common sense? It isn't illegal or immoral, it is taking advantage of a loop hole that legally allows it.

I'm not rich, but I'm sick and tired of paying thousands of dollars in sales tax on a car that has already been taxed 2 or 3 times by the time I bought it, only to sell it 2-3 years later for the state to tax it once again....THAT IS THE REAL SCAM

I'm currently debating doing this on a car I'm about to buy from a private party to avoid giving the state $8,000 for a car I will maybe drive 2000 miles a year....If I lived in AZ I wouldn't have to go through any of this, becuse they don't tax used cars that are sold by private party....imagine that?

They already take $10,000 a year from me in property taxes on my house alone.... not to mention the yearly registration fees for my other car registrations and highest gas taxes in the country on top of that....the roads should be paved in gold by how much money they take form regular folks every year.


Until states stop raping people on sales taxes on things like used cars, people will continue to find ways to avoid being raped.

You are richer than most, you own a house, multiple cars, so stop complaining. For every one of you, there are way more people in the same acreage living in apartments. Every state does it a little differently, that tends to benefit certain groups more than others, sometimes it's benefitting fixed incomes better, sometimes multiple property owners, and so on. AZ uses car value-based registration to generate a significant amount of tax revenue (% of new cost for x number of years, depreciating), other states do not. They also have some significant sales taxes, and so on. Everyone always thinks the grass is so green on the other side because they don't tax one particular thing in some other state, whilst ignoring where they make up that revenue. Sure, you might find one that works a little better for your particular situation, but it's not some great travesty when they make up their revenue in different ways. My parents thought Texas was a tax haven...not realizing all the ways that you still get taxed there (which I experience regularly on work trips), ultimately moving to AZ. Certain states can be tax havens for certain people, in certain situations.

I met a guy last week that owns a detail business. He lives in Kansas and owns a BAC Mono. Kansas wouldn't let him register the car so he registered the car in Montana so he could drive it on the streets. He's been pulled over multiple times in the last year solely because the cops do not believe the car can be legal and his plates fake. Now he's dealing with the state because they are telling him the car needs to reside in Montana and not at his residence in Kansas. He's been dealing with this for 6 months now and is afraid to drive the car as the state says they might impound the car if it's driven on a public road in Kansas. There are multiple hypercar owners in Kansas he's knows facing the same problem with their Montana registered cars. The BAC Mono is absolutely stunning and sounds amazing too. I would have never known one exists in my town if I didn't meet this guy during a volleyball match and started talking cars.

XutvJet wrote

I met a guy last week that owns a detail business. He lives in Kansas and owns a BAC Mono. Kansas wouldn't let him register the car so he registered the car in Montana so he could drive it on the streets. He's been pulled over multiple times in the last year solely because the cops do not believe the car can be legal and his plates fake. Now he's dealing with the state because they are telling him the car needs to reside in Montana and not at his residence in Kansas. He's been dealing with this for 6 months now and is afraid to drive the car as the state says they might impound the car if it's driven on a public road in Kansas. There are multiple hypercar owners in Kansas he's knows facing the same problem with their Montana registered cars. The BAC Mono is absolutely stunning and sounds amazing too. I would have never known one exists in my town if I didn't meet this guy during a volleyball match and started talking cars.

Honestly, they should be afraid. They're actively choosing to avoid taxes they must.lay under the law.

Now as to why the BAC can't be registered, that's a separate issue.

SoCal_NSX wrote

lmao...so it is ok for states to keep taxing vehicles EVERY TIME they trade hands?

That is the real TAX FRAUD

Seriously. Bought a car in Florida in 2019 from the dealer, paid sales tax. Moved to another state in 2019, paid sales tax again when I registered the car for my new address. I'll have to go back and check my records but I'm pretty sure I didn't sell my car to myself when I moved. If you can fuck either your local or federal government out of money, and do it legally, DO IT because god knows they will take money from you using any opportunity they have at their disposal.

btw, Hagerty and other insurance companies do insure cars owned by Montana LLC's and garaged in other states.

I'm on hold right now getting a quote from Hagerty who said they do quite a bit of policies using Montana LLC's....


ok, just got a $2600 a year quote which isn't bad at all for the R8 I'm looking to purchase

XutvJet wrote

I met a guy last week that owns a detail business. He lives in Kansas and owns a BAC Mono. Kansas wouldn't let him register the car so he registered the car in Montana so he could drive it on the streets. He's been pulled over multiple times in the last year solely because the cops do not believe the car can be legal and his plates fake. Now he's dealing with the state because they are telling him the car needs to reside in Montana and not at his residence in Kansas. He's been dealing with this for 6 months now and is afraid to drive the car as the state says they might impound the car if it's driven on a public road in Kansas. There are multiple hypercar owners in Kansas he's knows facing the same problem with their Montana registered cars. The BAC Mono is absolutely stunning and sounds amazing too. I would have never known one exists in my town if I didn't meet this guy during a volleyball match and started talking cars.

You can’t be pulled over based on the state your car is registered in so your friend may want to brush up on his rights and ask the cops if they’re going to write him a ticket or if he’s free to go, and don’t answer any questions if he’s not being detained. He should also record every one of these illegal stops and consult an attorney on how to sue the police department for doing it repeatedly.